作者 主题: 关于“频繁乘法运算”对跑团的影响……  (阅读 6029 次)

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关于“频繁乘法运算”对跑团的影响……
« 于: 2018-12-17, 周一 22:35:26 »
简单说一下……关于“简化”乘法运算的影响……
的确,如果是各种动态乘法运算时,需要频繁看两张卡来计算数据,会非常的麻烦和拖沓。
早期我们遇到过这类问题。


因此,我们内部测试时采取了“被动方计算”的原则,既,攻击者只需要提供使用了什么技能,什么效果的数据(相当于“输出”一个公式),由被攻击的对象进行实际运算。

例如:

引用
哥布林:对少女发动攻击(力5*威力4,击倒DC5(力量))
下次行动:先攻3(AP7)

少女:投点6
少女:受伤10,抵抗击倒 (5*(4-2防),6+3>DC5),剩余生命90

GM:哥布林的长矛在少女身上留下了一道不深的伤痕。

其实是将诸如“命中判定”等一系列步骤,连同伤害公式等等一起给了被攻击的一方进行合并计算,攻击者并不需要刻意去看对方的卡来进行演算。同样,PC打GM的怪时,也要GM去计算实际伤害和投骰子。

加上全面压缩数据,事实上确实是减少了很多“不必要的麻烦”。

至少目前,我们内部的战斗节奏把握的还是挺合适的,不过,我们的核心规则也快发布了,可能对外测试时会有一些麻烦吧……(然后又要继续想办法解决了 :em004
« 上次编辑: 2018-12-17, 周一 22:39:30 由 千年酱 »
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Re: 关于“频繁乘法运算”对跑团的影响……
« 回帖 #1 于: 2018-12-17, 周一 22:53:19 »
It really depends on how your audience take them.

The fact of complexities is just as much important as the illusion of complexities: If someone is just going to put the thing down in 5 seconds saying "it's too complicated" then it does not matter whether it is or not. Sadly this is a pretty common thing in the field. v=_=v

how do you "spiff it up" and make it seems interesting?  Really, how do you stop people saying things are too complicated before they even read it?
WHFRP3 tried it with a boatload of boxsets... Okay, that failed miserably and they seemed to have stopped that with the new book that just came out last week.
The rest of the FF lines are doing that with "special dice" that are pretty much straight changing the numbers for pictures. That seems to be working for them and for some who choose that as well.
Others take various boardgame-esque approaches and such.
Or, you can just present it as is, if you feel confident enough.

For the stuffs above, consider your target audience and what will consider as ease of access for them. Not "Everybody Out There" cause seriously its TRPG we're talkin' 'bout here. =3= Get your niche down before going for bigger places.
I just can't grasp Chinese Input, so I can only handwrite.
It takes me about 10 times as much to write Chinese on the PC than English, plus the finger pains... >3<

So unless it's VERY important, I'll just do English.

Give me a holler if you can't do English though and I'll try to accommodate. -w-b
(Except Grammar Nazis cause, you know, THEY'RE RELATED TO NAZIS!!! And pretty impolite to boot too. =_+\ )
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Re: 关于“频繁乘法运算”对跑团的影响……
« 回帖 #2 于: 2018-12-17, 周一 23:15:51 »
It really depends on how your audience take them.

The fact of complexities is just as much important as the illusion of complexities: If someone is just going to put the thing down in 5 seconds saying "it's too complicated" then it does not matter whether it is or not. Sadly this is a pretty common thing in the field. v=_=v

how do you "spiff it up" and make it seems interesting?  Really, how do you stop people saying things are too complicated before they even read it?
WHFRP3 tried it with a boatload of boxsets... Okay, that failed miserably and they seemed to have stopped that with the new book that just came out last week.
The rest of the FF lines are doing that with "special dice" that are pretty much straight changing the numbers for pictures. That seems to be working for them and for some who choose that as well.
Others take various boardgame-esque approaches and such.
Or, you can just present it as is, if you feel confident enough.

For the stuffs above, consider your target audience and what will consider as ease of access for them. Not "Everybody Out There" cause seriously its TRPG we're talkin' 'bout here. =3= Get your niche down before going for bigger places.

Yes, it is important.

So we write many in 'Tips: how to play this game', to make people feel comfortable than complex.

And actually, in spite of we are working in a way of 'drive by issues', we still have no more experience in introducing and make people feel interesting. It will be a challenge for our further work(As many we have already overcome).

The vital point may be how we lead the game as a GM and preach this game..
(And sadly, only me still have some time to do this...now...)

We have solved some complexities problems in this way, but as what I have said before, many issues will come in the future...

————————————————————

是的,这很重要……
我们在《如何更好的玩这个游戏》的“指南”中,写了很多这类内容。以此让玩家感到舒服而非复杂,少走弯路。
不过,尽管我们一直在以“Drive By Issues”(实事求是,解决问题,而非责备别人或者孤芳自赏)的态度工作,但在如何让别人感到有趣这个方面,我们仍然很缺乏经验。这的确是个麻烦。
关键可能在于,需要我们做好GM工作,以及宣传这个游戏(更倒霉的是,现在只有我有这个时间。)。

我们通过这个办法解决了“复杂乘法”的问题,但正如我说的,将来会有更多问题亟待解决的。
« 上次编辑: 2018-12-17, 周一 23:18:11 由 千年酱 »
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Re: 关于“频繁乘法运算”对跑团的影响……
« 回帖 #3 于: 2018-12-17, 周一 23:26:20 »
It really depends on how your audience take them.

The fact of complexities is just as much important as the illusion of complexities: If someone is just going to put the thing down in 5 seconds saying "it's too complicated" then it does not matter whether it is or not. Sadly this is a pretty common thing in the field. v=_=v

how do you "spiff it up" and make it seems interesting?  Really, how do you stop people saying things are too complicated before they even read it?
WHFRP3 tried it with a boatload of boxsets... Okay, that failed miserably and they seemed to have stopped that with the new book that just came out last week.
The rest of the FF lines are doing that with "special dice" that are pretty much straight changing the numbers for pictures. That seems to be working for them and for some who choose that as well.
Others take various boardgame-esque approaches and such.
Or, you can just present it as is, if you feel confident enough.

For the stuffs above, consider your target audience and what will consider as ease of access for them. Not "Everybody Out There" cause seriously its TRPG we're talkin' 'bout here. =3= Get your niche down before going for bigger places.

I think a good way may be like the 'guide to adventure' in DND 4E.

Giving people no any character sheets, and in the story, he/she will 'remember' his/her stats/abilities in the introduction, letting the audience write them down, finish some events, combat, and finally, at the end of the story, the audience will have a full starting character.

This is what I will do in this week :)

————————————————
我想一个好点子,可能是像4E一样,写一份“冒险指南”。
一开始并不给观众看角色卡,在冒险介绍中,逐一“回忆”其角色拥有的能力和属性,让观众记录下来,完成一些事件和战斗。
当这个故事结束时,观众会获得一个完整的,初始人物卡。

我将在这周做这份工作……
« 上次编辑: 2018-12-17, 周一 23:28:07 由 千年酱 »
Vestige In Stratos(《千年之幻想》)规则试作版2.0企划中
http://www.goddessfantasy.net/bbs/index.php?board=1778.0
V.I.S 对外公开+提意见群:948476585
欢迎大佬们前来指教的说~



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Re: 关于“频繁乘法运算”对跑团的影响……
« 回帖 #4 于: 2018-12-18, 周二 00:07:04 »
这里我名声最坏,不中听的话我来说吧

作为对光明之剑及其创作者略有所知的人,我觉得,排除这个系列规则的原始作者【相当傻逼】这一致命缺点外,这个规则还有一个问题是什么呢?
就是他创造这个规则,没有任何理由
这个规则既没有任何背景上的风味,也不是在dnd或者别的什么规则系统的基础上对其不足进行补完。wod的目的是创作叙事系统,科南rpg是给3r为基础的dnd进行调整以更适合低魔而蛮荒的世界观,pf是3.75,4e是wotc为战棋化和平衡性而作出的尝试,5e是综合自己各版本之长并为初心者极大优化的系统,泛统是要在一个系统里包罗万有,扶桑武侠传是日系活剧风,秦是武侠……
光明之剑,以及现在这什么千年幻想有什么?什么都没有,只有创作者对于dnd的仇恨,对自己脑力的过度自信,以及所谓的“国人要有自己的原创trpg”而刻意为创新而创新出来的污七八糟玩意。dnd说要吃饭,我就吃屎,dnd说做咖喱多放糖,我偏多放石灰,美国人的汉堡是面包夹肉夹芝士,我要做中国人自己的汉堡,那就用猪皮夹大头菜夹豆汁吧!嗯……这么做出来的东西,有人想吃就怪了
岩石不因体积而比钻石更珍贵,那宇宙又怎会因体积而比人类更伟大呢?

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Re: 关于“频繁乘法运算”对跑团的影响……
« 回帖 #5 于: 2018-12-18, 周二 01:46:48 »
投点平均值公式里包括了乘法吧,可以骰子替代乘法计算?

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Re: 关于“频繁乘法运算”对跑团的影响……
« 回帖 #6 于: 2018-12-18, 周二 05:38:23 »
Adding words for a bunch of people who might not want to read MORE words might not be the best idea.

Some JTRPGs tend to use a bunch of comics for the more complicated stuffs; At the same time there are some western designers who believe "Always put one small picture in every few pages to break the monotomy. Quality or relation doesn't matter in this regard." Both sides use simple powerpoint-type graphs quite often.

Wall of text is scary regardless. (This thing here should be example enough. 0rz)

You don't need quality artists. How about this: Try to make a few small, simple, DVD-setup-manual type of instruction-oriented pictures (Not the semi-publishable manga types you see in JTRPGs; That'll be overkill right from the start so DON"T DO THIS at least for now.) And see how far it can get you. Maybe it can get you some new ideas to show it to others?

==================================================

As for WHY we make games and edits: I myself never ask WHY anymore.
(Especially when I've still been doing that after decades... Reasons and points only get you so far. :em016 )

In the hobby, everybody would eventually get to this point. Maybe for a lot of people that's like for 15 minutes, for a few though the idea sticks.

But do we NEED new systems?

Heck NO. To put it simply, we've never NEEDED anything beyond AD&D2ed at the first place.
It's the basis of a rule, we want a rule, we houserule rules when necessary. Done.

Every other games out there are only by reason of Market Forces, and none of them are ever "needed" per se. And even if you discount that, the most we "need" for systems are probably the top 10 that dominate the vast majority of TRPG market. - And strangely enough that list won't include PF as it is a variation of D&D that you can just houserule into D&D. v=_=v

But why do we have so many countless other stuffs out there? Well, why not?

"Wanting to do something" is itself reason enough. Even if the person in question has never read any other thing out there except D&Dcore, and his product is only going to turn into a sad heartbreaker that might work even worse than the original. - Not that I am saying it is the case here. I ain't gonna say anything about this thing at hand here is my point if you catches my drift. v*_*v - I really don't have any reason to stop it. Market Force will deal with it whether we like it or not.

(Plus we all have something we do that, in other people's eyes, are "pointless". Like playing TRPG for example... AHEM. Anyhow POV is important.)

If nothing else, we always have the choice to do things "for the lulz" as long as it does not hurt anybody else.

Plus, waaaaaaaay more importantly, sometimes miracles do happen. If we keep asking why there won't be PF, nor will there be Lamanation of the Flame Princess, 無限, and probably not FATE. Heck we won't have Tesla making cars if we keep asking why... Okaaaaaay, bad example there. !!!=3=\

(WE WON'T HAVE KURATAS IF WE KEEP ASKING WHY!!!!! DARN I REALLY WANT ONE OF THOSE. :em032 :em032 :em032 :em032 :em032 )

Maybe it will turn out great, and we all reap profit; If not, nothing is wasted on my end, nor on his end as he'll probably learn to either make something better next time or stop trying at all, neither of which has anything to do with me as well.

So I'd say let them go for it. Just my own .0000002 cents. v=3=v
« 上次编辑: 2018-12-18, 周二 05:40:54 由 Mounrou »
I just can't grasp Chinese Input, so I can only handwrite.
It takes me about 10 times as much to write Chinese on the PC than English, plus the finger pains... >3<

So unless it's VERY important, I'll just do English.

Give me a holler if you can't do English though and I'll try to accommodate. -w-b
(Except Grammar Nazis cause, you know, THEY'RE RELATED TO NAZIS!!! And pretty impolite to boot too. =_+\ )
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Re: 关于“频繁乘法运算”对跑团的影响……
« 回帖 #7 于: 2018-12-18, 周二 07:43:37 »
这里我名声最坏,不中听的话我来说吧

作为对光明之剑及其创作者略有所知的人,我觉得,排除这个系列规则的原始作者【相当傻逼】这一致命缺点外,这个规则还有一个问题是什么呢?
就是他创造这个规则,没有任何理由
这个规则既没有任何背景上的风味,也不是在dnd或者别的什么规则系统的基础上对其不足进行补完。wod的目的是创作叙事系统,科南rpg是给3r为基础的dnd进行调整以更适合低魔而蛮荒的世界观,pf是3.75,4e是wotc为战棋化和平衡性而作出的尝试,5e是综合自己各版本之长并为初心者极大优化的系统,泛统是要在一个系统里包罗万有,扶桑武侠传是日系活剧风,秦是武侠……
光明之剑,以及现在这什么千年幻想有什么?什么都没有,只有创作者对于dnd的仇恨,对自己脑力的过度自信,以及所谓的“国人要有自己的原创trpg”而刻意为创新而创新出来的污七八糟玩意。dnd说要吃饭,我就吃屎,dnd说做咖喱多放糖,我偏多放石灰,美国人的汉堡是面包夹肉夹芝士,我要做中国人自己的汉堡,那就用猪皮夹大头菜夹豆汁吧!嗯……这么做出来的东西,有人想吃就怪了
别说的这么不堪嘛……
我觉得人家只是看到汉堡好吃就想自己做个更好吃的
所以开始有样学样
然而大家有好的汉堡吃为什么还要吃这家既没有卫生验证又没有独特风味里面还时不时夹杂一些奇怪的食材,并且用一个很难拆开的大盒子包装的汉堡呢?何况这个汉堡……也不好看。
我在他们群里也说过这个问题了
但是好像么有引起注意
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Re: 关于“频繁乘法运算”对跑团的影响……
« 回帖 #8 于: 2018-12-18, 周二 10:03:48 »
“什么,原来跑团需要经常用到乘法吗?”
« 上次编辑: 2018-12-18, 周二 10:06:40 由 死猫运输直升机 »

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Re: 关于“频繁乘法运算”对跑团的影响……
« 回帖 #9 于: 2018-12-18, 周二 10:37:24 »
这里我名声最坏,不中听的话我来说吧

作为对光明之剑及其创作者略有所知的人,我觉得,排除这个系列规则的原始作者【相当傻逼】这一致命缺点外,这个规则还有一个问题是什么呢?
就是他创造这个规则,没有任何理由
这个规则既没有任何背景上的风味,也不是在dnd或者别的什么规则系统的基础上对其不足进行补完。wod的目的是创作叙事系统,科南rpg是给3r为基础的dnd进行调整以更适合低魔而蛮荒的世界观,pf是3.75,4e是wotc为战棋化和平衡性而作出的尝试,5e是综合自己各版本之长并为初心者极大优化的系统,泛统是要在一个系统里包罗万有,扶桑武侠传是日系活剧风,秦是武侠……
光明之剑,以及现在这什么千年幻想有什么?什么都没有,只有创作者对于dnd的仇恨,对自己脑力的过度自信,以及所谓的“国人要有自己的原创trpg”而刻意为创新而创新出来的污七八糟玩意。dnd说要吃饭,我就吃屎,dnd说做咖喱多放糖,我偏多放石灰,美国人的汉堡是面包夹肉夹芝士,我要做中国人自己的汉堡,那就用猪皮夹大头菜夹豆汁吧!嗯……这么做出来的东西,有人想吃就怪了

仇恨DND的时代早已经我们几个第一次肃反整风时就结束了。

而VIS来说,
v1.2开始是一个结合TCG风格和TRPG,追求“大道至简”风格的,“现代化”尝试。(从年前就开始着手定格主要的风格,既duel为主和参考了4e的模式)

v1.4是对之前版本内容不足的矫枉过正。(因为某些之前版本的大量复杂运算没有排除,生引进来的很多系统反而造成了冗余问题,导致面团第一次对外测试基本变成了批判会……)

v1.5是数值大幅优化和压缩,以及大量减少运算量,也就是现在这个版本。(改动大到了什么程度呢?作废了80%的百分比运算,核心数值大改,所有职业(20+)技能重写,现在核心刚快改完,除了v1.5即兴写的俩扩展外,所有扩展职业全部手稿化)

这不是硬要往汉堡里加石灰,是我们一直在努力探索一道从大饼到披萨的路,而且走得很漫长,很艰难。
« 上次编辑: 2018-12-18, 周二 10:46:25 由 千年酱 »
Vestige In Stratos(《千年之幻想》)规则试作版2.0企划中
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欢迎大佬们前来指教的说~



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Re: 关于“频繁乘法运算”对跑团的影响……
« 回帖 #10 于: 2018-12-18, 周二 11:13:24 »
这还不简单吗,升骰子或多投例如两个骰子的变成三个d6upd8ord10之类,这不就不需要乘法了

1.这些事都有合理解释,但出于安全考虑,不能公开。
2.由于降低了预算,监管力量削弱才有了这一疏忽。
3.该实验值得一做,并已经停止,得到了大量珍贵数据。还提供了就业。
4.有些重要信息,尘埃落定以后我们才能得知。下不为例。
5.由个人决策失误引起,已根据内部纪律条例予以处理。

离线 千年酱

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Re: 关于“频繁乘法运算”对跑团的影响……
« 回帖 #11 于: 2018-12-18, 周二 11:55:43 »
这还不简单吗,升骰子或多投例如两个骰子的变成三个d6upd8ord10之类,这不就不需要乘法了
D10对于D6来说,只是增加了40%更高伤害的可能性。

这与讲究侧重于思考、控制局面(v1.5新增思路)与实力直观表现的VIS核心设定是有所违背的。

这个规则如今的特点之一,就是技能的卡牌化,除非敌人属性太高,或者具有相对的抗性加值,不然很多时候DEBUFF和“控场”效果都是 4/6 以上的命中率。

而我们追求的乐趣正是这个玩法……(虽然现在还不知道是否成功)
Vestige In Stratos(《千年之幻想》)规则试作版2.0企划中
http://www.goddessfantasy.net/bbs/index.php?board=1778.0
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欢迎大佬们前来指教的说~



离线 千年酱

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Re: 关于“频繁乘法运算”对跑团的影响……
« 回帖 #12 于: 2018-12-18, 周二 12:08:19 »
Adding words for a bunch of people who might not want to read MORE words might not be the best idea.

Some JTRPGs tend to use a bunch of comics for the more complicated stuffs; At the same time there are some western designers who believe "Always put one small picture in every few pages to break the monotomy. Quality or relation doesn't matter in this regard." Both sides use simple powerpoint-type graphs quite often.

Wall of text is scary regardless. (This thing here should be example enough. 0rz)

You don't need quality artists. How about this: Try to make a few small, simple, DVD-setup-manual type of instruction-oriented pictures (Not the semi-publishable manga types you see in JTRPGs; That'll be overkill right from the start so DON"T DO THIS at least for now.) And see how far it can get you. Maybe it can get you some new ideas to show it to others?

==================================================

As for WHY we make games and edits: I myself never ask WHY anymore.
(Especially when I've still been doing that after decades... Reasons and points only get you so far. :em016 )

In the hobby, everybody would eventually get to this point. Maybe for a lot of people that's like for 15 minutes, for a few though the idea sticks.

But do we NEED new systems?

Heck NO. To put it simply, we've never NEEDED anything beyond AD&D2ed at the first place.
It's the basis of a rule, we want a rule, we houserule rules when necessary. Done.

Every other games out there are only by reason of Market Forces, and none of them are ever "needed" per se. And even if you discount that, the most we "need" for systems are probably the top 10 that dominate the vast majority of TRPG market. - And strangely enough that list won't include PF as it is a variation of D&D that you can just houserule into D&D. v=_=v

But why do we have so many countless other stuffs out there? Well, why not?

"Wanting to do something" is itself reason enough. Even if the person in question has never read any other thing out there except D&Dcore, and his product is only going to turn into a sad heartbreaker that might work even worse than the original. - Not that I am saying it is the case here. I ain't gonna say anything about this thing at hand here is my point if you catches my drift. v*_*v - I really don't have any reason to stop it. Market Force will deal with it whether we like it or not.

(Plus we all have something we do that, in other people's eyes, are "pointless". Like playing TRPG for example... AHEM. Anyhow POV is important.)

If nothing else, we always have the choice to do things "for the lulz" as long as it does not hurt anybody else.

Plus, waaaaaaaay more importantly, sometimes miracles do happen. If we keep asking why there won't be PF, nor will there be Lamanation of the Flame Princess, 無限, and probably not FATE. Heck we won't have Tesla making cars if we keep asking why... Okaaaaaay, bad example there. !!!=3=\

(WE WON'T HAVE KURATAS IF WE KEEP ASKING WHY!!!!! DARN I REALLY WANT ONE OF THOSE. :em032 :em032 :em032 :em032 :em032 )

Maybe it will turn out great, and we all reap profit; If not, nothing is wasted on my end, nor on his end as he'll probably learn to either make something better next time or stop trying at all, neither of which has anything to do with me as well.

So I'd say let them go for it. Just my own .0000002 cents. v=3=v

V.I.S is still not mature even after 2 years. We must face more challenges in the future.

And in fact, V.I.S is a TRPG with many TCG features, we design to let people use their abilities in crucial points and 'control' the battle tide against enemies.

So this is why we still determine to use multiplication after 5 core updates, 'Defense' will be vital point in combat, not 'more chance to avoid' but 'vital damage mitigation'.

And we will also take your points into consideration.
Vestige In Stratos(《千年之幻想》)规则试作版2.0企划中
http://www.goddessfantasy.net/bbs/index.php?board=1778.0
V.I.S 对外公开+提意见群:948476585
欢迎大佬们前来指教的说~



离线 Leaf

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Re: 关于“频繁乘法运算”对跑团的影响……
« 回帖 #13 于: 2018-12-18, 周二 12:11:04 »
你要搞清楚一点原则,要用简单现成的泛用工具来做出简单直观的效果,而不是脑子一抽把问题复杂化搞死你自己
1.这些事都有合理解释,但出于安全考虑,不能公开。
2.由于降低了预算,监管力量削弱才有了这一疏忽。
3.该实验值得一做,并已经停止,得到了大量珍贵数据。还提供了就业。
4.有些重要信息,尘埃落定以后我们才能得知。下不为例。
5.由个人决策失误引起,已根据内部纪律条例予以处理。

离线 cmoon

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Re: 关于“频繁乘法运算”对跑团的影响……
« 回帖 #14 于: 2018-12-18, 周二 12:15:03 »
v1.2开始是一个结合TCG风格和TRPG,追求“大道至简”风格的,“现代化”尝试。(从年前就开始着手定格主要的风格,既duel为主和参考了4e的模式)

v1.4是对之前版本内容不足的矫枉过正。(因为某些之前版本的大量复杂运算没有排除,生引进来的很多系统反而造成了冗余问题,导致面团第一次对外测试基本变成了批判会……)

蛤?

而且核心都没写完还写扩展的
« 上次编辑: 2018-12-18, 周二 12:18:34 由 cmoon »
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